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Friday, July 2, 2010

A Quandary of heavenly proportion....

My brain started thinking tonight after reading a few more past posts on:

http://writersthoughts-brianna.blogspot.com/

It jogged a thinking process that sometimes, frankly I would rather not have. Why wouldn't I like to think? Well--There are many reasons, it's hard! ;) But this reason was something less ignoble.*sigh of relief* Because I have thought about it before and haven't been able to slay this dragon of thought and belief.

Do we attack the falseness in "science" that seems to disprove God's own spoken word? Or do we bypass the speaking on science and address the heart issue, the real issue, showing the truth in real science once someone is saved?  Round and round my mind goes, there are indeed merits for both! Breaking down the false assumptive physical walls in somebody's ideas about God, "realistic" or "scientific"  reasons for a lack of their ideas/faith on God. This idea is used by many, many strong Christians! Those who have upheld the faith amid a time apostasy. Ken Ham being a hallmark example. I myself have used some of his excellent material! Just the other day I used his website(http://www.answersingenesis.org) For some research after a conversation with a geo-physicist about young earth stemming from his talk on natural satellites. It(the site) was extremely useful and wholly informative.

Unfortunately, how often to you hear about die hard, indoctrinated evolutionists, or for that matter, any other religious sect follower that is turned by hard facts? Well, my answer to this semi-rhetorical question is.....Few. I am not saying by any means it never happens! No, because people are convinced by facts, at least convinced their own ideas and ideas they have been fed are false! I am saying, when people are persuaded to believe in God and what he did for them is it is not based solly on facts. Facts can't prove God is exists. They CAN'T. I once had a debate with a fellow that was out with his point he tried to push, the idea that you can prove God so you don't need faith. He tried. Hard. Unfortunately for him, the Bible itself speaks of faith being needed.....So, in the end he just gave up. It was very strange during the discourse to think that someone thought that it could all be proven logically, and faith was rendered unneeded in the belief of God. Almost shocking, but having been to a few American churches in my day, not too shocking :P

(Side note: God being not "proven to man" is one of the reasons I don't believe the Ark, or such religious pillars will ever be A: found, or B: Validated. But this is a post for another day)

I digress....Again. :(

I am fond of the phrase, "Don't try to skin the fish before you catch it!". Something that I, try hard not to be guilty of. Don't try to clean up the sinner before God cleans up his sin. You can't, they can't, and they have no reason to. See, even as a saved believer I still stumble when I have ALL the reasons in the world to do right, and God' power to do it, the key ingredient. They have no reason to do right, and they haven't the power even if they do come up with a reason. 

Now ye are asking, "How does this fit in with giving the gospel or destroying strongholds of ignorance? Or--Is he just going off on another tangent again"  Well I think it does fit, are we trying to teach them the facts we see as obvious because of where we start our search? The Bible.(Or we should) While they are looking somewhere else for answers and finding them because they are starting at a different base? Does it make sense to try to teach a lil' ol' how to eat dry food when they don't have the teeth for it yet? Nope. (Just an example please do not read into it.) In the same way, does it make sense to try to get a non-Christian to accept something that is strongly based off of our faith. I don't think so. What do you think?




So rather than come to a cut and dried conclusion, I will leave you with this.


In Athens Acts 17
 16While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols. 17So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there. 18A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to dispute with him. Some of them asked, "What is this babbler trying to say?" Others remarked, "He seems to be advocating foreign gods." They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection. 19Then they took him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, "May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? 20You are bringing some strange ideas to our ears, and we want to know what they mean." 21(All the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas.)  22Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: "Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you.
 24"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'
 29"Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man's design and skill. 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."
 32When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some of them sneered, but others said, "We want to hear you again on this subject." 33At that, Paul left the Council. 34A few men became followers of Paul and believed. Among them was Dionysius, a member of the Areopagus, also a woman named Damaris, and a number of others.

My emphasis added.


Corinthians 2

1When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.[a] 2For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, 5so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power. 6We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9However, as it is written:
   "No eye has seen,
      no ear has heard,
   no mind has conceived
   what God has prepared for those who love him"[b]10but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
      The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.[c] 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
 16"For who has known the mind of the Lord
      that he may instruct him?"[d] But we have the mind of Christ.



Draw your own conclusions, but please, send me a note, let me know what you think :)


Millard

6 comments:

Nathan R. Petrie said...

Writing notes as I read :-)

It's always helpful to answer the scientific and logical questions people have. Sometimes that IS the real issue. But it's a good way to lead into the heart problem. So I wouldn't write it off ;)

"Unfortunately, how often to you hear about die hard, indoctrinated evolutionists, or for that matter, any other religious sect follower that is turned by hard facts?"

All the time actually. Whenever someone goes out to study unbiased, they become a Christian. Almost every time.

God can be proven. Not sure why you think he can't. The Bible even says so: "His invisible attributes made known, so that man is without excuse.". There are many logical explanations as to why there must be a God. Proving that he exists does not take away faith. Christianity is not a faith that God exists. It's not even knowing that he does. It's the lordship and servanthood thing. Faith means confidence, not believing in something you can't see.

" In the same way, does it make sense to try to get a non-Christian to accept something that is strongly based off of our faith. I don't think so. What do you think?"

I agree with not trying to make sinners obey. But not making them accept something that's based on our faith? Hello, for them to be saved they need to accept something that was based in our faith.

Not sure what the point of those verses were LOL

Millard of Swiftstorm said...

Yay! A comment :)

I am sure we run in different circles, but if the person is going to come as un-biased as possible it speaks of a heart change already in process.

Ye can not prove beyond a doubt he exists Nathan. He is "made known" aye. "*If* you look, and take some things on faith. There are explanations that present a very strong view on why there *must* be a God. But nothing so blatant that proves it without taking some on faith. Faith is the belief in what is yet unseen, but I would challenge you to, whether in email or what, prove to me God exists. Somethings always must be taken on faith, *always*. To clarify, I do not say you can't make a good case for God, but I do say he can't be proven beyond a doubt.

"I agree with not trying to make sinners obey. But not making them accept something that's based on our faith? Hello, for them to be saved they need to accept something that was based in our faith."

<_< Based on our faith? Say again....? Christ is the CENTER of our faith. He is not a rule, a word you can't say, he is not a law they have to accept. Our faith is based on Christ, things based "in" our faith would be rules or perhaps words of teaching, but Christ is not any of those things.


lol, well that's Ok :) IF enough people check it out somebody might :)

Nathan R. Petrie said...

People's hearts are already changing. You simply asked how many people look at evidence and listen to logic and then come to God based on that. I answered that several do. Nothing is taken solely on evidence. After all, you have to have faith that the evidence is actually what you see in front of you.

"You cannot prove without a doubt"
Hold up, I never said without a doubt. Nothing is ever proved without a doubt. Tell me, do I exist? Well how do you know? Actually, you can't know. Because you could be imagining me. It happens all the time. So even if you saw me, touched me, interacted with me, you could never know "without a doubt" that I exist.

Proof that God exists:

1. Morality exists, therefore a God must: Assuming you believe in right and wrong, another topic altogether, God must exist. If God doesn't exist, there is no base right and wrong. Wrong could very well be right and right could be wrong. Rape could have evolved differently to be beneficial to society. Were things different, morality could be different. Because we all agree that right and wrong exist, apart from our feelings, there must be a God that is that standard.

2. All things in existence require a beginning: Scientifically, things must begin. Actually, even using evolutionary science they understand that time and space began at some point in (for lack of a better word) time. Because they admit that something came from nothing we have two options: Something came from nothing caused by nothing or Something came from nothing because something above both nothing and something made it be so. Something without a beginning, without an end, and that is completely separate from the physical realm. This must be God.

3. Good exists in the world: Were there not a God, selfless acts could not be done. Acts of patriotism, anything unselfish, wouldn't happen. No one would help the poor, etc. Why? Because letting the poor die, allowing the strongest men to win, would simply be natural selection at work. We are, without God, after all animals. We couldn't work against evolution therefore we couldn't act selflessly.

4. Creation is designed with intelligence: We see extremely complicated information that statistically is impossible without a creator. In addition, you see these words on this blog. What if I told you the letters created themselves, typed themselves, formed cohesive sentences, and also magically let you understand what they were. It wouldn't make sense. YOu see intelligence, so you know something intelligent made them.

All of the above, proves God.

"To clarify, I do not say you can't make a good case for God, but I do say he can't be proven beyond a doubt."

Nothing in existence can be proven beyond doubt.

"Based on our faith? Say again....? Christ is the CENTER of our faith. He is not a rule, a word you can't say, he is not a law they have to accept. Our faith is based on Christ, things based "in" our faith would be rules or perhaps words of teaching, but Christ is not any of those things."

Okay so then you didn't mean what you said. Because faith in Christ is based on our faith that: the Bible is historically accurate, The Bible was handed down accurately, God exists, The apostle's weren't crazy, and numerous other things. Yes, it must be taken on faith. And asking someone to accept Christ is the same as asking them to accept something based on our faith. We are asking them to do something BECAUSE we have faith in something. My statement again was:

"I agree with not trying to make sinners obey. But not making them accept something that's based on our faith? Hello, for them to be saved they need to accept something that was based in our faith."

Eagles Wings said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Nathan R. Petrie said...

@Eagles, I never said that an unsaved person couldn't do good. I said that if God never existed such acts of good wouldn't happen. Please don't add to my words :-) LOL

Jake said...

Oops, did my comment not publish? :O That's too bad. I can't remember any of it now. :P